Shousetsu JUNE 20th Anniversary Talk

月刊 小説June
October 1998

Interview = Miyake Yuu
Photos = Kajiki Norio

 

As ISSAY-san smokes his Gitanes cigarettes, and Atsushi-san drinks his preferred full-bodied Italian red wine, the two men look like they’ve come from a scene out of a movie. 3 days before this interview, they met backstage where ISSAY-san performed his mime but did not have the time to talk much. As such, this will be the first time in half a year that they will be chatting over drinks like this, and in this conversation, we will be hearing about a variety of stories from them, beginning with the moment when they first met.

 

Profiles

ISSAY
Born on 6th July 1962, blood type AB. Vocalist of DER ZIBET, he debuted in 1985 with “待つ歌 (Matsu Uta)” and has since influenced many Visual-Kei bands. This 26th August, he will be releasing the debut album of his new group Φ (PhI).

Sakurai Atsushi
Born on 7th March 1966, blood type O. BUCK-TICK’s latest release is “SWEET STRANGE LIVE”, which was recorded on 8th and 9th May during their Budokan live. Both the disc (CD) and the film (video) are currently on sale. The film is their first live recording in 6 years, while the disc is their first live album.

ーー Since this is the magazine’s commemorative interview for our 20th Anniversary issue, I’d like to talk about memorable moments that you’ve had with each other, be it from when you first met, when you collaborated on each others’ albums, or on other occasions. First, can you tell me about how you first met?

ISSAY (I): On TV or something…

Atsushi (A): That was the first time we met?

I: That was probably the first time we properly greeted each other. In the basement of Rokumeikan (鹿鳴館). I’ve known of your band prior to that though. … That’s a long time ago, isn’t it.

A: It sure is a long time ago. Around 10 or 11 years ago.

I: Say, it was a live performance for a TV recording or something in Rokumeikan… So, I think we were in the same dressing room together.

ーー So that small dressing room was the place where you first met.

A: Before that, I think, back when we were still an amateur band, I happened to pass by DER ZIBET’s live at Shibuya’s Eggman… My friend forgot their dubbed tape of DER ZIBET’s first album at home, so that was the very first encounter (smiles). As I listened to it, somehow, I had a feeling of “liking” it. Following that I memorised the name, and by chance, as I was walking around in the streets of Shibuya, the words “Performing today DER ZIBET” appeared, so going in on a whim was that first time. At least for me, one-sidedly.

ーー As you mentioned earlier, you’ve put in a message on your answering machine saying something like ‘it would be nice if you could meet’, but in reality, did you contact each other before the event to agree that you’d both go then?

I: I did call, asking if he could go… … And he said, “Ah, I can go”, so I said, “All right, let’s go”.

A: I remember feeling extremely relieved. Being in a foreign land…

I: A weirdo I know has come (laughs).

A: Being able to meet ISSAY-san.

ーー Back then, was there time for the both of you to go drinking together or anything like that?

I: We didn’t go drinking or anything of the sort, did we.

A: Yes. If anything, I’m not very good at asking others out for drinks. It’s like, isn’t there a kind of audacity in that?

I: That’s not true (laughs).

A: No, it’s there (laughs). I’m not good at making calls to people in the first place, so because of that, I only ever feel prepared to make calls around once or twice a year.

ーー What about showing up in the dressing rooms when either of you have lives…

A: I have been asked to go. Though I don’t do it very often. If anything, I’m not good at dealing with such things as well so… But I wanted to go as much as possible so I did drop by a few times at Power Station, along with some other places.

ーー I believe that there will be many people during after-parties and backstage so I assume that there weren’t many chances for you to have casual conversations, right?

A: Back then, there was no time at all. Because I’ll already be feeling like “Oh no…” (laughs).

ーー When did you start getting that “Oh no” feeling…

A: Because we were given the opportunity to talk on occasion through magazines like this, since then, I’ve felt it a few times.

I: And also, I basically won’t call someone up and ask them out for drinks, you see. I think Acchan is somewhat like that too though.

ーー Did the thought of taking part in each other’s albums come up while you were having a conversation?

I: No, between us, we had a common friend, and when I casually uttered something like, “Ah, how happy it’ll make me if Acchan would work with me~”, he conveyed it over (laughs). From that came his (Sakurai’s) participation in DER ZIBET’s “思春期(Shishunki)”.

ーー How did Sakurai-san feel when you heard of this through someone else?

A: The moment I heard about it I got nervous (laughs). But I was very happy. Truly.

ーー What memories do you have from his participation in your album?

I: The song was written within DER ZIBET so HIKARU brought the motif of a particular song, and there was a song that made him say “I think this is the one”, and then he (Sakurai) came over to our studio right? Once? Right then, I asked, “This is the song but… is it a no?” and he said he liked it and he sang for me.

ーー During recording, was it also done in a state of nervousness? Or were you able to participate without the nerves?

A: No, there was nothing but nervousness. But ISSAY-san, and HIKARU-san and the others urged me to relax. At the time, though, I was given the opportunity to work with ISSAY-san in a song, a duet. I was initially nervous but later on, I found myself getting chills. Because we were somewhat the same.

I: ”Somewhat” the same, right (laughs). When it was finished, everyone said “Your voices are so similar that I can’t tell who’s who”, didn’t they.  I was like “is that so?”.

ーー Following that, ISSAY-san, in turn, took part in BUCK-TICK’s recording too.

I: Well, after that, he took part in my solo work as well. I thought it would be terribly amusing if two men were to sing this (laughs). But I did wonder, what if he hates it. And then, surprisingly, he understood what I was getting at in the laughable parts, the serious parts, and all that. Atsushi-kun’s key is lower than mine, right. My key is higher but, at that time, conversely, we used an atypical technique where I sang the lower parts and Atsushi-kun sang the higher parts, but somehow that felt great.

 

「(Their) stage is very stimulating. It’s an heirloom, isn’t it」- Sakurai
「I thought that (he has) an amazing presence when I stood on stage with him」- ISSAY

ーー Was there a reason for that?

I: No, I don’t think I’ve sung in this key much, and I don’t think that Atsushi-kun reaches this key often either.

A: Before that, when you invited me to the Shishunki live and asked me to go up on stage, that came first, right.

I: The live that came after we released our single, I think it was at Kudan Kaikan (九段会館). At that time, when I requested him to come, he willingly did. Back then, the tour came first, and the last one was at Kudan Kaikan. And it’s lonely to sing alone in the district, isn’t it? Like, why am I singing alone (laughs).

A: It was the same for “Rockstar” too, wasn’t it?

I: That song, singing it alone even though it’s a song for two to sing together, isn’t that lonely.

A: (DER ZIBET’s) stage is very stimulating. It’s an heirloom, isn’t it (laughs)

I: I thought that (Sakurai-kun has) an amazing presence when I stood on stage with him.

ーーOn the other hand, how does it feel when Sakurai-san’s on stage with ISSAY-san?

A: Well, I guess, you could say he makes me feel very excited… There were no meetings, nor were there staging decisions made in advance, he gave me the freedom to do it however I wanted to but it was very, how should I say this, like a feeling of acceptance… I was very nervous but giving me such freedom to do things, accepting me, and responding back in the same way, maybe for me, maybe on his own accord… it was a very high-tension space. I thought that something like that was a first.

I: The tension was very high for me too. Not only have I never split an original song between two people to perform, but I’ve never done that on stage before either. Since it’s my first time doing this, the tension on my end was raised as well. A song is a song, so we created extra tension, didn’t we (laughs), since it wasn’t a cheerful song.

ーー The chances of something like that, which is like a dream come true, happening again… Is it close to zero?

A: No, I don’t think that’s how it is.

I: About 3 years ago? Or has it already been 4 years? Since you called on me. Has it already been 4 years since then? When Atsushi-kun contacted me, asking me if I would like to be a part of BUCK-TICK’s recording, I was so happy I said “Eh, really? Are you sure?” (laughs)

A: I had nothing to lose… at that time.

I: Is that so? I was so very happy. Because that was another great song, with great lyrics.

ーー I do believe that everyone is eagerly looking forward to the next such opportunity.

I: When we were recording that, it was interesting, wasn’t it? At the start, we sang seriously, finished it, then decided “well then, let’s have a drink”, and while drinking, the conversation got to my solo album and he said, “That song’s nice, isn’t it”, and when I asked “Acchan, could it be that perhaps you want to sing in that way”, he said “Kind of…”, so I said, “Alright, let’s sing it again” (laughs). Initially, we took quite a lot of time to record it but when we re-sang it since he wanted to sing in that way, surprisingly, we were able to record a lot better (laughs)

A: There’s a part in me that thought that something like ISSAY-san’s is really nice, how should I put it…

I: That’s not true, it just ends up going the orthodox way, for me, probably.

A: That’s not a problem at all, but I wanted to bring out more of ISSAY-san’s nasty side.

ーー So you’re saying that the initial recording resulted in an orthodox one but when you re-recorded, ISSAY-san’s harshness came out.

A: Something ideal did.

I: Something nasty did (laughs).

A: It’s not my song, and it’s not my recording either, so I thought that there was a sense of having to give in. To cut away that restriction and be free like this, it’s like that ero-guro (erotic grotesque) kind of feeling of eking things out, asking to do it one more time when the song is already complete (laughs)

I: But thanks to that, I’ve become confident in that harsh part of me, very much so (laughs). Like, ah, so this is okay. Thanks to that, my attitude towards singing might have also somewhat changed. Because something like that doesn’t really come up, y’know.

ーー Even to ISSAY-san, it’s as if something that you weren’t aware of yourself was drawn out.

I: I knew that that part of me existed but there was the question of “Is this okay?”, and singing this way is fine too. Following that you called on me to your lives 4 times, right? Twice in Tokyo, then Okinawa and Osaka. That tour sure was interesting. To start, everyone who watched that live thought that we coordinated our movements and had planned for it beforehand. None of that was done, none at all. But the tension was brought so high, the way that each of us moves looks like it was planned.

ーー It’s like both of your movements were naturally in unison?

I: No, the movements weren’t the same. Each of our movements was like an ensemble, there were very interesting parts, and the song too, we were instigating each other when performing it, weren’t we? Having two singers instigate each other, you don’t really see that, do you? Especially in the current state of Japan’s rock scene. If it was some kind of a session, like one where everyone is taking turns and singing a similar song together, that’s enjoyable in its own way. But such a serious contest like this…

A: Because of that, there was a glamorous feeling to it, wasn’t there?

I: Yeah, a very glamorous feeling.

A: Until then, to meet ISSAY-san anywhere else other than Tokyo…

I: That rarely happens.

A: That rarely happens so I never expected that he would come to Osaka or even Okinawa, but (he also slot it in between schedules) that coincided with his friend’s magazine interview. Travelling to the scorching hot island.

I: I went to the scorching hot Okinawa wearing a 3-piece suit. I even brought along a cane (laughs)

A: That made me happy, yes.

I: I simply just didn’t know the circumstances in Okinawa well (laughs). Since it’s also in Japan, it’s in the same country, I thought along those lines, but that was quite dreadful.

A: Ah, no, but I was happy (laughs). I was wondering what am I going to do if you come dressed in a T-shirt.

I: That friend of mine said to me, “What’s with that outfit even though you’re going to Okinawa” and I said, “It’s a summer suit though…” (laughs)

ーー What did Sakurai-san wear at the time?

A: I was wearing my stage outfit, the one that’s jet black, so it completely absorbs the sun rays… (laughs)

I: And for around 20 minutes, we were on the boat, under the scorching hot sun, having a photoshoot while headed to the island of Okinawa, I felt like dying. Furthermore, it was in the afternoon, we met at 12. Both of us don’t even wake up at that time. I thought I was already melting (laughs). Like, I’m dying…

A: It makes you think that it’s bad for your health, right?

I: I’ll never forget the line that Atsushi-kun said at that time. While being stunned, you said, “To be whittled down like this, to this extent…” (laughs). He sounds like such a littérateur. I thought, I love this person’s choice of words and expression, like, what a poet (laughs).

A: I might’ve been insusceptible to the sun.

I: You’d run away, wouldn’t you, if I asked you to say that again.

ーー What about visiting a cold region next time?

I: Yet, that place is alright, isn’t it, since there’s a lot of sunshine, really. It’s amazing. It was beautiful but I can’t go unless I brace myself first. Like, you wouldn’t have expected the sun to be that powerful. Apollo is incredible (laughs).

A: That was in the middle of summer, wasn’t it? I think it was June or July.

I: It was the end of June.

ーー It’s exceptionally hot, isn’t it? Okinawa.

 

「I wonder if you can call that dramatic?」- ISSAY
「From my perspective, it’s quite so though (laughs)」- Sakurai
「The red string of fate can be seen」- ISSAY

ーー You’ve had all those experiences leading up to your present relationship, but how do you get in touch and go out these days?

I: Going out and all, we don’t really do that, do we. Even though we say things like, “let’s go, let’s go”.

A: That said, we don’t get in touch either.

I: Not really.

A: Maybe it’s my personality, I guess I end up thinking too much… or perhaps a large percentage of the time, when you invite someone out, you’ll end up playing the role of the host, and I’d end up thinking that I don’t have the ability to do that, so… On the other hand, being asked out and having someone’s attention on me is also very… I’d end up thinking about it and I’ll just decide that it would still be best if we could meet naturally, spontaneously.

I: Like meeting up together when I happen to be drinking and I hear that you’re drinking somewhere nearby too. Say, if we’re having an after-party following a DER ZIBET live and we’re drinking in Roppongi, and if I asked “Shall we go?” you’d say “I’m coming”, and all of the members of BUCK-TICK will come on board at some random izakaya in Shibuya (laughs).

ーー Some random izakaya in Shibuya? (laughs)

I: A normal izakaya where anyone can visit, one where even university students can visit without it being weird.

A: Because everyone drinks at those places. Though, even now, we still go to these places.

ーー Right now, ISSAY-san doesn’t have one but, since there are mobile phones or PHS, you can easily get in touch, right?

I: Atsushi-kun, do you have one?

A: No, I don’t.

I: Those things, they’re no good, are they? It’s like putting a bell around your neck, I don’t like that. No matter what, I just can’t get into that.

ーー Perhaps dramatic coincidences like those times on the Toumei expressway, or in London, will happen again.

I: I wonder if you can call that dramatic.

A: From my perspective, it’s quite so though (laughs).

I: The red string of fate can be seen.

A: Because that’s how it’s been right from the start, right? My friend left behind a tape that has been stretched out (laughs). Though in those days there were records, weren’t there, I suppose much of the rotations were different.

I: The condition was pretty bad, wasn’t it.

ーー It could be that your friend listened to it over and over until it stretched out.

A: That is probably so.

ーー And after that, at Eggman.

A: And that’s the first coincidence.

I: Come to think of it, I’m going back to the previous topic but when I made an appearance during BUCK-TICK’s live, before I went up on stage, you sang a phrase “Shizumitai (沈みたい; I want to sink)” in acapella, didn’t you? And I thought, “Huh? That sounds like a song I’ve heard before”. For a moment I kept wondering what song it was. And just as I was told that I’m going up on stage, it suddenly hit me, like, “This, I’ve heard this before, what was it, ah, it’s my own song, it’s ‘Shizumitai’”.

A: For a moment you couldn’t figure it out, right?

I: You sang with such a sweet voice again.

A: What are you saying (laughs)

I: No, but, I really love that voice. Because you sang for me with a sweet and sensual voice. Won’t this man sing for me, the whole song?

A: Hey, wait a minute now (laughs)

ーー The both of you have been committed to aesthetics since before there was what is now known as Visual-Kei, but did you expect that Visual-Kei would grow to what it is now?

I: Not at all. Although I thought that it’s interesting how it has turned out like this. Because, you see, when we came out, we were being bashed.

A: Yeah, a hell lot.

I: We were being attacked a lot, weren’t we?

A: Though, it made you think, ‘ah, so this is how it is’, didn’t it?

ーー With the way that it has turned out to be now, do you think that it has become interesting? Or is it interesting in a different way than what you expected…

I: For me, personally, I think that there are pros and cons. It does have rather interesting aspects in it, but, for example, if it turns out to be a mere facade, that’s boring. But fundamentally speaking, I don’t hate them, people like that. Because it’s easy for me to understand, like ‘ah, I suppose they want to do it this way’, or this is their kind of aesthetic, and so on.

ーー Does Sakurai-san find it interesting?

A: I’m relatively unconcerned but… It’s a passive feeling, isn’t it? Though there are times when by chance, on TV, or when someone tells me about someone else, they’d leave an impression on me where I’m thinking “that’s nice”. It’s a feeling that hits me from the opposite direction.

ーー So you’re saying that there are bands that hit you with an impression that makes you think “that’s nice”.

A: Of course there are.

 

「For the readers, well…… Thank you for your continued support for the both of us (laughs)」- Sakurai
「Even though we’re both such people (laughs). Us two who don’t change」- ISSAY

 

ーー Since it’s been awhile that you’ve spoken to each other, is there anything you’d like to say to each other?

A: So, coming from me. Recently, (at space Zero), it was the first time that you’ve shown me your pantomime but, how should I say this, the feeling that I got from that, basically it is no different from what I felt the first time I saw you at Eggman, and I thought that you were very flexible. Very flexible, in a good way. But fundamentally, he can’t bend, he gives you the feeling that he’s not willing to bend, you can see that. At Eggman, I thought that was great. This masked man (laughs). Right from the very first impression, I’ve always thought in my mind that there’s something amazing.

ーー Was it like a reminiscent feeling of that “wowー” that you got when you saw him at Eggman over 10 years ago?

A: That’s right, though I wanted to watch in closer proximity, this time’s mime.

ーー Where were you seated?

A: My seat was towards the back though.

ーー Because the space in that venue is quite big, right?

I: I don’t normally perform in a space that large though, for my mimes. Like a place that would already be full with 180 people in it.

A: ……How do I say this, though, there are places that cannot be expressed in words.

I: They can’t be described, right (laughs)

A: Though, where I watched from was in the back, so I had the the urge of wanting to go closer to the front to see each person’s expressions, to see more. But it was fantastic, very much so. I wanted to become even more immersed in it but no matter what, there was always a distance keeping us apart after all. But that was wonderful. I’ve not seen many performances like that but it was similar to when such theatrics visited my elementary school’s auditorium or something when I was still a child, and from there came an emotion that’s akin to feeling a little frightened, where you’re afraid but yet you want to go into it, little by little.

ーー Instead of an intrusive fear, is it more like a fear that you can’t look away from?

A: Yes, because it felt like the strings would snap there and then if I took my eyes off them, there was that kind of precarious feeling there, and at the same time, there was a lot to enjoy, wasn’t there? The music was exceptional too.

ーー Are there any scenes that left an impression on you?

A: Scenes?

ーー Or maybe actions, as well.

A: Well, there were a lot of different elements that came together, so it’s definitely the ambience… The ambience in the start was so good.

I: The start?

A: …「I love you」. I thought, ‘whoa, how nice’ (laughs).

I: Nah, it’s important to do that unabashedly, saying ‘I love you’.

A: At that moment, I thought that it would be great if I was seated a little closer to the front (laughs).

I: You thought so? You did?

A: At the least around 2 rows away, diagonally behind from where ISSAY-san stood.

ーー Even if the seat was empty, it would be difficult to move there, wouldn’t it? Since there will be a distinctive tension in the air when it’s dark.

A: Even in a concert, if you go from sitting in front to sitting in the back of the second floor, the atmosphere changes a little. Seeing becomes spectating.

ーー Even when the stage is being filmed, there’s an objectivity where you’d want to capture the audience’s excitement when you aim towards the back, but when you’re filming from off stage, in the audience, the mood is like what you’d feel as a fan, perhaps, where you directly feel the moment that makes you think that the person on stage is cool, and that, again, is something completely different, isn’t it?

A: Ah, but that was wonderful. It gave me the feeling that he’s definitely an expressionist after all.

I: Thank you.

ーー May we have a comment from you for the readers of the magazine?

A: For the readers, well… Thank you for your continued support for the both of us (laughs).

I: (laughs) We’ve known each other for a long time though, in a good way. Really, as artists, there were parts that have changed through the years, and what’s the absolute most important point, it’s close to what we’ve talked about earlier, but, it’s to be constant, unchanging. I think that this is a very important factor, isn’t it? I really love that unchanging characteristic of his. That the most important thing of all, for humans, is to have the intention to never change what they love and what’s important to them. And because he comes across to me as someone who shows that very clearly, that part of him, it was as expected that when I went for BUCK-TICK’s live late last year, I found myself thinking that when it comes to this person, once you’ve watched him, you’ll definitely become a fan. Because he was just so attractive. It makes me think that, as it is, even if he were to change the way he does things, I’d want him to go with being “unchanging”. I think that this is probably the Atsushi-kun that I love. Even his eyes, they’ve never changed from the moment when we first met until now. I want him to stay like this because there aren’t many people like him, honestly. Right now, I think that he’s an invaluable person even within Japan’s rock scene. Just like this, steadily, even while he changes, I’d wish that he continues to be invariant. With regards to the readers, it really is as Atsushi-kun said, isn’t it. Even though we’re both such people (laughs). Us two who don’t change. For me, this is the only thing that I can do. To be truly grateful for the support.

ーー For our magazine as well, we’ve gone through a lot during these past 20 years, but in future, perhaps for the 25th anniversary or the 30th anniversary, or maybe if we cheat a little and go with the 22nd anniversary or something (laughs), if there’s another opportunity, we’ll definitely be looking forward to having you here again. Thank you very much for today.

 

Outtakes

＊They got excited over talking about games and both agreed that the visuals in “Biohazard (a.k.a. Resident Evil)” were interesting.

A: I’d end up shooting the gun without thinking

I: I’d be so deeply absorbed in the game’s world that, for example, when I see a dog when I’m walking down the street, I’d be thinking things like “I can defeat this with a gun” (laughs)

＊When they were asked to sign autographs on paper as a gift for readers:

I: Acchan, which side do you sign on?

A: For us (the band) we have 5 people so I’m always in the middle

I: That’s hard to balance out with 2 people, isn’t it (laughs)  Your signature, it’s in English?

A: I actually love Kanji, but writing so many strokes became a pain (laughs)  The number of strokes left me defeated (laughs)

 

 

 

Translation: Yoshiyuki
Scans: Ameblo