Shousetsu JUNE 20th Anniversary Talk

月刊 小説June
October 1998

Interview = Miyake Yuu
Photos = Kajiki Norio

As ISSAY-san smokes his Gitanes cigarettes, and Atsushi-san drinks his preferred full-bodied Italian red wine, the two men look like they’ve come from a scene out of a movie. 3 days before this interview, they met backstage where ISSAY-san performed his mime but did not have the time to talk much. As such, this will be the first time in half a year that they will be chatting over drinks like this, and in this conversation, we will be hearing about a variety of stories from them, beginning with the moment when they first met.

Profiles

ISSAY
Born on 6th July 1962, blood type AB. Vocalist of DER ZIBET, he debuted in 1985 with “待つ歌 (Matsu Uta)” and has since influenced many Visual-Kei bands. This 26th August, he will be releasing the debut album of his new group Φ (PhI).

Sakurai Atsushi
Born on 7th March 1966, blood type O. BUCK-TICK’s latest release is “SWEET STRANGE LIVE”, which was recorded on 8th and 9th May during their Budokan live. Both the disc (CD) and the film (video) are currently on sale. The film is their first live recording in 6 years, while the disc is their first live album.

ーー Since this is the magazine’s commemorative interview for our 20th Anniversary issue, I’d like to talk about memorable moments that you’ve had with each other, be it from when you first met, when you collaborated on each others’ albums, or on other occasions. First, can you tell me about how you first met?

ISSAY (I): On TV or something…

Atsushi (A): That was the first time we met?

I: That was probably the first time we properly greeted each other. In the basement of Rokumeikan (鹿鳴館). I’ve known of your band prior to that though. … That’s a long time ago, isn’t it.

A: It sure is a long time ago. Around 10 or 11 years ago.

I: Say, it was a live performance for a TV recording or something in Rokumeikan… So, I think we were in the same dressing room together.

ーー So that small dressing room was the place where you first met.

A: Before that, I think, back when we were still an amateur band, I happened to pass by DER ZIBET’s live at Shibuya’s Eggman… My friend forgot their dubbed tape of DER ZIBET’s first album at home, so that was the very first encounter (smiles). As I listened to it, somehow, I had a feeling of “liking” it. Following that I memorised the name, and by chance, as I was walking around in the streets of Shibuya, the words “Performing today DER ZIBET” appeared, so going in on a whim was that first time. At least for me, one-sidedly.

ーー As you mentioned earlier, you’ve put in a message on your answering machine saying something like ‘it would be nice if you could meet’, but in reality, did you contact each other before the event to agree that you’d both go then?

I: I did call, asking if he could go… … And he said, “Ah, I can go”, so I said, “All right, let’s go”.

A: I remember feeling extremely relieved. Being in a foreign land…

I: A weirdo I know has come (laughs).

A: Being able to meet ISSAY-san.

ーー Back then, was there time for the both of you to go drinking together or anything like that?

I: We didn’t go drinking or anything of the sort, did we.

A: Yes. If anything, I’m not very good at asking others out for drinks. It’s like, isn’t there a kind of audacity in that?

I: That’s not true (laughs).

A: No, it’s there (laughs). I’m not good at making calls to people in the first place, so because of that, I only ever feel prepared to make calls around once or twice a year.

ーー What about showing up in the dressing rooms when either of you have lives…

A: I have been asked to go. Though I don’t do it very often. If anything, I’m not good at dealing with such things as well so… But I wanted to go as much as possible so I did drop by a few times at Power Station, along with some other places.

ーー I believe that there will be many people during after-parties and backstage so I assume that there weren’t many chances for you to have casual conversations, right?

A: Back then, there was no time at all. Because I’ll already be feeling like “Oh no…” (laughs).

ーー When did you start getting that “Oh no” feeling…

A: Because we were given the opportunity to talk on occasion through magazines like this, since then, I’ve felt it a few times.

I: And also, I basically won’t call someone up and ask them out for drinks, you see. I think Acchan is somewhat like that too though.

ーー Did the thought of taking part in each other’s albums come up while you were having a conversation?

I: No, between us, we had a common friend, and when I casually uttered something like, “Ah, how happy it’ll make me if Acchan would work with me~”, he conveyed it over (laughs). From that came his (Sakurai’s) participation in DER ZIBET’s “思春期(Shishunki)”.

ーー How did Sakurai-san feel when you heard of this through someone else?

A: The moment I heard about it I got nervous (laughs). But I was very happy. Truly.

ーー What memories do you have from his participation in your album?

I: The song was written within DER ZIBET so HIKARU brought the motif of a particular song, and there was a song that made him say “I think this is the one”, and then he (Sakurai) came over to our studio right? Once? Right then, I asked, “This is the song but… is it a no?” and he said he liked it and he sang for me.

ーー During recording, was it also done in a state of nervousness? Or were you able to participate without the nerves?

A: No, there was nothing but nervousness. But ISSAY-san, and HIKARU-san and the others urged me to relax. At the time, though, I was given the opportunity to work with ISSAY-san in a song, a duet. I was initially nervous but later on, I found myself getting chills. Because we were somewhat the same.

I: ”Somewhat” the same, right (laughs). When it was finished, everyone said “Your voices are so similar that I can’t tell who’s who”, didn’t they.  I was like “is that so?”.

ーー Following that, ISSAY-san, in turn, took part in BUCK-TICK’s recording too.

I: Well, after that, he took part in my solo work as well. I thought it would be terribly amusing if two men were to sing this (laughs). But I did wonder, what if he hates it. And then, surprisingly, he understood what I was getting at in the laughable parts, the serious parts, and all that. Atsushi-kun’s key is lower than mine, right. My key is higher but, at that time, conversely, we used an atypical technique where I sang the lower parts and Atsushi-kun sang the higher parts, but somehow that felt great.

「(Their) stage is very stimulating. It’s an heirloom, isn’t it」- Sakurai
「I thought that (he has) an amazing presence when I stood on stage with him」- ISSAY

ーー Was there a reason for that?

I: No, I don’t think I’ve sung in this key much, and I don’t think that Atsushi-kun reaches this key often either.

A: Before that, when you invited me to the Shishunki live and asked me to go up on stage, that came first, right.

I: The live that came after we released our single, I think it was at Kudan Kaikan (九段会館). At that time, when I requested him to come, he willingly did. Back then, the tour came first, and the last one was at Kudan Kaikan. And it’s lonely to sing alone in the district, isn’t it? Like, why am I singing alone (laughs).

A: It was the same for “Rockstar” too, wasn’t it?

I: That song, singing it alone even though it’s a song for two to sing together, isn’t that lonely.

A: (DER ZIBET’s) stage is very stimulating. It’s an heirloom, isn’t it (laughs)

I: I thought that (Sakurai-kun has) an amazing presence when I stood on stage with him.

ーーOn the other hand, how does it feel when Sakurai-san’s on stage with ISSAY-san?

A: Well, I guess, you could say he makes me feel very excited… There were no meetings, nor were there staging decisions made in advance, he gave me the freedom to do it however I wanted to but it was very, how should I say this, like a feeling of acceptance… I was very nervous but giving me such freedom to do things, accepting me, and responding back in the same way, maybe for me, maybe on his own accord… it was a very high-tension space. I thought that something like that was a first.

I: The tension was very high for me too. Not only have I never split an original song between two people to perform, but I’ve never done that on stage before either. Since it’s my first time doing this, the tension on my end was raised as well. A song is a song, so we created extra tension, didn’t we (laughs), since it wasn’t a cheerful song.

ーー The chances of something like that, which is like a dream come true, happening again… Is it close to zero?

A: No, I don’t think that’s how it is.

I: About 3 years ago? Or has it already been 4 years? Since you called on me. Has it already been 4 years since then? When Atsushi-kun contacted me, asking me if I would like to be a part of BUCK-TICK’s recording, I was so happy I said “Eh, really? Are you sure?” (laughs)

A: I had nothing to lose… at that time.

I: Is that so? I was so very happy. Because that was another great song, with great lyrics.

ーー I do believe that everyone is eagerly looking forward to the next such opportunity.

I: When we were recording that, it was interesting, wasn’t it? At the start, we sang seriously, finished it, then decided “well then, let’s have a drink”, and while drinking, the conversation got to my solo album and he said, “That song’s nice, isn’t it”, and when I asked “Acchan, could it be that perhaps you want to sing in that way”, he said “Kind of…”, so I said, “Alright, let’s sing it again” (laughs). Initially, we took quite a lot of time to record it but when we re-sang it since he wanted to sing in that way, surprisingly, we were able to record a lot better (laughs)

A: There’s a part in me that thought that something like ISSAY-san’s is really nice, how should I put it…

I: That’s not true, it just ends up going the orthodox way, for me, probably.

A: That’s not a problem at all, but I wanted to bring out more of ISSAY-san’s nasty side.

ーー So you’re saying that the initial recording resulted in an orthodox one but when you re-recorded, ISSAY-san’s harshness came out.

A: Something ideal did.

I: Something nasty did (laughs).

A: It’s not my song, and it’s not my recording either, so I thought that there was a sense of having to give in. To cut away that restriction and be free like this, it’s like that ero-guro (erotic grotesque) kind of feeling of eking things out, asking to do it one more time when the song is already complete (laughs)

I: But thanks to that, I’ve become confident in that harsh part of me, very much so (laughs). Like, ah, so this is okay. Thanks to that, my attitude towards singing might have also somewhat changed. Because something like that doesn’t really come up, y’know.

ーー Even to ISSAY-san, it’s as if something that you weren’t aware of yourself was drawn out.

I: I knew that that part of me existed but there was the question of “Is this okay?”, and singing this way is fine too. Following that you called on me to your lives 4 times, right? Twice in Tokyo, then Okinawa and Osaka. That tour sure was interesting. To start, everyone who watched that live thought that we coordinated our movements and had planned for it beforehand. None of that was done, none at all. But the tension was brought so high, the way that each of us moves looks like it was planned.

ーー It’s like both of your movements were naturally in unison?

I: No, the movements weren’t the same. Each of our movements was like an ensemble, there were very interesting parts, and the song too, we were instigating each other when performing it, weren’t we? Having two singers instigate each other, you don’t really see that, do you? Especially in the current state of Japan’s rock scene. If it was some kind of a session, like one where everyone is taking turns and singing a similar song together, that’s enjoyable in its own way. But such a serious contest like this…

A: Because of that, there was a glamorous feeling to it, wasn’t there?

I: Yeah, a very glamorous feeling.

A: Until then, to meet ISSAY-san anywhere else other than Tokyo…

I: That rarely happens.

A: That rarely happens so I never expected that he would come to Osaka or even Okinawa, but (he also slot it in between schedules) that coincided with his friend’s magazine interview. Travelling to the scorching hot island.

I: I went to the scorching hot Okinawa wearing a 3-piece suit. I even brought along a cane (laughs)

A: That made me happy, yes.

I: I simply just didn’t know the circumstances in Okinawa well (laughs). Since it’s also in Japan, it’s in the same country, I thought along those lines, but that was quite dreadful.

A: Ah, no, but I was happy (laughs). I was wondering what am I going to do if you come dressed in a T-shirt.

I: That friend of mine said to me, “What’s with that outfit even though you’re going to Okinawa” and I said, “It’s a summer suit though…” (laughs)

ーー What did Sakurai-san wear at the time?

A: I was wearing my stage outfit, the one that’s jet black, so it completely absorbs the sun rays… (laughs)

I: And for around 20 minutes, we were on the boat, under the scorching hot sun, having a photoshoot while headed to the island of Okinawa, I felt like dying. Furthermore, it was in the afternoon, we met at 12. Both of us don’t even wake up at that time. I thought I was already melting (laughs). Like, I’m dying…

A: It makes you think that it’s bad for your health, right?

I: I’ll never forget the line that Atsushi-kun said at that time. While being stunned, you said, “To be whittled down like this, to this extent…” (laughs). He sounds like such a littérateur. I thought, I love this person’s choice of words and expression, like, what a poet (laughs).

A: I might’ve been insusceptible to the sun.

I: You’d run away, wouldn’t you, if I asked you to say that again.

ーー What about visiting a cold region next time?

I: Yet, that place is alright, isn’t it, since there’s a lot of sunshine, really. It’s amazing. It was beautiful but I can’t go unless I brace myself first. Like, you wouldn’t have expected the sun to be that powerful. Apollo is incredible (laughs).

A: That was in the middle of summer, wasn’t it? I think it was June or July.

I: It was the end of June.

ーー It’s exceptionally hot, isn’t it? Okinawa.

「I wonder if you can call that dramatic?」- ISSAY
「From my perspective, it’s quite so though (laughs)」- Sakurai
「The red string of fate can be seen」- ISSAY

ーー You’ve had all those experiences leading up to your present relationship, but how do you get in touch and go out these days?

I: Going out and all, we don’t really do that, do we. Even though we say things like, “let’s go, let’s go”.

A: That said, we don’t get in touch either.

I: Not really.

A: Maybe it’s my personality, I guess I end up thinking too much… or perhaps a large percentage of the time, when you invite someone out, you’ll end up playing the role of the host, and I’d end up thinking that I don’t have the ability to do that, so… On the other hand, being asked out and having someone’s attention on me is also very… I’d end up thinking about it and I’ll just decide that it would still be best if we could meet naturally, spontaneously.

I: Like meeting up together when I happen to be drinking and I hear that you’re drinking somewhere nearby too. Say, if we’re having an after-party following a DER ZIBET live and we’re drinking in Roppongi, and if I asked “Shall we go?” you’d say “I’m coming”, and all of the members of BUCK-TICK will come on board at some random izakaya in Shibuya (laughs).

ーー Some random izakaya in Shibuya? (laughs)

I: A normal izakaya where anyone can visit, one where even university students can visit without it being weird.

A: Because everyone drinks at those places. Though, even now, we still go to these places.

ーー Right now, ISSAY-san doesn’t have one but, since there are mobile phones or PHS, you can easily get in touch, right?

I: Atsushi-kun, do you have one?

A: No, I don’t.

I: Those things, they’re no good, are they? It’s like putting a bell around your neck, I don’t like that. No matter what, I just can’t get into that.

ーー Perhaps dramatic coincidences like those times on the Toumei expressway, or in London, will happen again.

I: I wonder if you can call that dramatic.

A: From my perspective, it’s quite so though (laughs).

I: The red string of fate can be seen.

A: Because that’s how it’s been right from the start, right? My friend left behind a tape that has been stretched out (laughs). Though in those days there were records, weren’t there, I suppose much of the rotations were different.

I: The condition was pretty bad, wasn’t it.

ーー It could be that your friend listened to it over and over until it stretched out.

A: That is probably so.

ーー And after that, at Eggman.

A: And that’s the first coincidence.

I: Come to think of it, I’m going back to the previous topic but when I made an appearance during BUCK-TICK’s live, before I went up on stage, you sang a phrase “Shizumitai (沈みたい; I want to sink)” in acapella, didn’t you? And I thought, “Huh? That sounds like a song I’ve heard before”. For a moment I kept wondering what song it was. And just as I was told that I’m going up on stage, it suddenly hit me, like, “This, I’ve heard this before, what was it, ah, it’s my own song, it’s ‘Shizumitai’”.

A: For a moment you couldn’t figure it out, right?

I: You sang with such a sweet voice again.

A: What are you saying (laughs)

I: No, but, I really love that voice. Because you sang for me with a sweet and sensual voice. Won’t this man sing for me, the whole song?

A: Hey, wait a minute now (laughs)

ーー The both of you have been committed to aesthetics since before there was what is now known as Visual-Kei, but did you expect that Visual-Kei would grow to what it is now?

I: Not at all. Although I thought that it’s interesting how it has turned out like this. Because, you see, when we came out, we were being bashed.

A: Yeah, a hell lot.

I: We were being attacked a lot, weren’t we?

A: Though, it made you think, ‘ah, so this is how it is’, didn’t it?

ーー With the way that it has turned out to be now, do you think that it has become interesting? Or is it interesting in a different way than what you expected…

I: For me, personally, I think that there are pros and cons. It does have rather interesting aspects in it, but, for example, if it turns out to be a mere facade, that’s boring. But fundamentally speaking, I don’t hate them, people like that. Because it’s easy for me to understand, like ‘ah, I suppose they want to do it this way’, or this is their kind of aesthetic, and so on.

ーー Does Sakurai-san find it interesting?

A: I’m relatively unconcerned but… It’s a passive feeling, isn’t it? Though there are times when by chance, on TV, or when someone tells me about someone else, they’d leave an impression on me where I’m thinking “that’s nice”. It’s a feeling that hits me from the opposite direction.

ーー So you’re saying that there are bands that hit you with an impression that makes you think “that’s nice”.

A: Of course there are.

「For the readers, well…… Thank you for your continued support for the both of us (laughs)」- Sakurai
「Even though we’re both such people (laughs). Us two who don’t change」- ISSAY

ーー Since it’s been awhile that you’ve spoken to each other, is there anything you’d like to say to each other?

A: So, coming from me. Recently, (at space Zero), it was the first time that you’ve shown me your pantomime but, how should I say this, the feeling that I got from that, basically it is no different from what I felt the first time I saw you at Eggman, and I thought that you were very flexible. Very flexible, in a good way. But fundamentally, he can’t bend, he gives you the feeling that he’s not willing to bend, you can see that. At Eggman, I thought that was great. This masked man (laughs). Right from the very first impression, I’ve always thought in my mind that there’s something amazing.

ーー Was it like a reminiscent feeling of that “wowー” that you got when you saw him at Eggman over 10 years ago?

A: That’s right, though I wanted to watch in closer proximity, this time’s mime.

ーー Where were you seated?

A: My seat was towards the back though.

ーー Because the space in that venue is quite big, right?

I: I don’t normally perform in a space that large though, for my mimes. Like a place that would already be full with 180 people in it.

A: ……How do I say this, though, there are places that cannot be expressed in words.

I: They can’t be described, right (laughs)

A: Though, where I watched from was in the back, so I had the the urge of wanting to go closer to the front to see each person’s expressions, to see more. But it was fantastic, very much so. I wanted to become even more immersed in it but no matter what, there was always a distance keeping us apart after all. But that was wonderful. I’ve not seen many performances like that but it was similar to when such theatrics visited my elementary school’s auditorium or something when I was still a child, and from there came an emotion that’s akin to feeling a little frightened, where you’re afraid but yet you want to go into it, little by little.

ーー Instead of an intrusive fear, is it more like a fear that you can’t look away from?

A: Yes, because it felt like the strings would snap there and then if I took my eyes off them, there was that kind of precarious feeling there, and at the same time, there was a lot to enjoy, wasn’t there? The music was exceptional too.

ーー Are there any scenes that left an impression on you?

A: Scenes?

ーー Or maybe actions, as well.

A: Well, there were a lot of different elements that came together, so it’s definitely the ambience… The ambience in the start was so good.

I: The start?

A: …「I love you」. I thought, ‘whoa, how nice’ (laughs).

I: Nah, it’s important to do that unabashedly, saying ‘I love you’.

A: At that moment, I thought that it would be great if I was seated a little closer to the front (laughs).

I: You thought so? You did?

A: At the least around 2 rows away, diagonally behind from where ISSAY-san stood.

ーー Even if the seat was empty, it would be difficult to move there, wouldn’t it? Since there will be a distinctive tension in the air when it’s dark.

A: Even in a concert, if you go from sitting in front to sitting in the back of the second floor, the atmosphere changes a little. Seeing becomes spectating.

ーー Even when the stage is being filmed, there’s an objectivity where you’d want to capture the audience’s excitement when you aim towards the back, but when you’re filming from off stage, in the audience, the mood is like what you’d feel as a fan, perhaps, where you directly feel the moment that makes you think that the person on stage is cool, and that, again, is something completely different, isn’t it?

A: Ah, but that was wonderful. It gave me the feeling that he’s definitely an expressionist after all.

I: Thank you.

ーー May we have a comment from you for the readers of the magazine?

A: For the readers, well… Thank you for your continued support for the both of us (laughs).

I: (laughs) We’ve known each other for a long time though, in a good way. Really, as artists, there were parts that have changed through the years, and what’s the absolute most important point, it’s close to what we’ve talked about earlier, but, it’s to be constant, unchanging. I think that this is a very important factor, isn’t it? I really love that unchanging characteristic of his. That the most important thing of all, for humans, is to have the intention to never change what they love and what’s important to them. And because he comes across to me as someone who shows that very clearly, that part of him, it was as expected that when I went for BUCK-TICK’s live late last year, I found myself thinking that when it comes to this person, once you’ve watched him, you’ll definitely become a fan. Because he was just so attractive. It makes me think that, as it is, even if he were to change the way he does things, I’d want him to go with being “unchanging”. I think that this is probably the Atsushi-kun that I love. Even his eyes, they’ve never changed from the moment when we first met until now. I want him to stay like this because there aren’t many people like him, honestly. Right now, I think that he’s an invaluable person even within Japan’s rock scene. Just like this, steadily, even while he changes, I’d wish that he continues to be invariant. With regards to the readers, it really is as Atsushi-kun said, isn’t it. Even though we’re both such people (laughs). Us two who don’t change. For me, this is the only thing that I can do. To be truly grateful for the support.

ーー For our magazine as well, we’ve gone through a lot during these past 20 years, but in future, perhaps for the 25th anniversary or the 30th anniversary, or maybe if we cheat a little and go with the 22nd anniversary or something (laughs), if there’s another opportunity, we’ll definitely be looking forward to having you here again. Thank you very much for today.

Outtakes

＊They got excited over talking about games and both agreed that the visuals in “Biohazard (a.k.a. Resident Evil)” were interesting.

A: I’d end up shooting the gun without thinking

I: I’d be so deeply absorbed in the game’s world that, for example, when I see a dog when I’m walking down the street, I’d be thinking things like “I can defeat this with a gun” (laughs)

＊When they were asked to sign autographs on paper as a gift for readers:

I: Acchan, which side do you sign on?

A: For us (the band) we have 5 people so I’m always in the middle

I: That’s hard to balance out with 2 people, isn’t it (laughs)  Your signature, it’s in English?

A: I actually love Kanji, but writing so many strokes became a pain (laughs)  The number of strokes left me defeated (laughs)

Translation: Yoshiyuki
Scans: Ameblo

Drinking Diary/Afterparty (Extract)

Ongaku to Hito
September 1995

Text = Ichikawa Tetsushi

In Russian

Ichikawa Tetsushi’s Drinking Diary – #61

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Monday, 26 June. Naha / Ryūkyūan* restaurant → The usual Soul Bar (first “endless drinking” in a long time).

I flew to Okinawa with ISSAY to wait for B-T. The way Sakurai broke into a wide grin as soon as he sees ISSAY’s face said, “Ahh, it’s a good thing I forced myself to move this tired body and come ♡” …… Ooooor maybe I’m just imagining things. At around 5 a.m., I and ISSAY made our escape first, and because ISSAY is around, I was able to leave by force and Imai, who couldn’t stop me from doing so, glared with hatred in his eyes. Ohh, this time, I have a good weapon with me!

Tuesday, 27 June. Naha / Sushi restaurant → Cabaret club that’s actually a lingerie pub** → Soul bar (“endless drinking” 2).

I drank a lot of Sake with Anii at a sushi restaurant and then got abducted by the local event organiser to a lingerie pub. Refer to the “Afterparty” for details of this “Lingerie Pub Tragedy”.

Wednesday, 28 June. Naha / Steak restaurant → The same club → The same soul bar (“endless drinking” 3).

When we went to our second destination, the club, the ladies who I met 2 years ago at another club were there. That frightening coincidence killed me. Also, Sakurai was being teased and called a Shisa***. We drank until 5:30 a.m. again today, and just as I thought of seizing the opportunity to flee now that Imai was turning into a Jizo statue, Imai surprised me by waking up all of a sudden as if by some animalistic instinct. This guy… I wonder if he will keep drinking even if his head gets cut off?

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end.

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Tuesday, 27 June

1 p.m., Sakurai Atsushi + ISSAY’s “Decadent Conversation in Midsummer” at the far-flung Okinawa. They were to have their photoshoot at Kudaka Island, one of the Islands of God which was a 30-minute ferry ride from the main Okinawa Island, but as usual, Sakurai hasn’t appeared. Ichikawa goaded Imai Hisashi at last night’s drinking session.

“Tomorrow, we’ll be going to the island in the afternoon for a photoshoot but don’t you think it’s the absolute best to spend the middle of summer drinking co~ld beer?    Imai, come join us at 1 p.m. tomorrow, come, come!”

“Uh…… I’ll go if I can wake up.”

“Ah, you don’t have to force yourself.”

“I’ll go!”

No one trusted him to, but Imai arrived at the lobby at 12:30 p.m. wearing a jersey and he asked the staff, “Am I still in time?”

“We’re gathering at 1.”

“Thank goodnessー.”

Imai, who hastily got changed, has arrived earlier than Sakurai!

“It was late when I woke up and I thought, ‘Oh shit,’ and panicked.”

Even Imai will turn^.

Without being beaten by the absurd amount of bobbing on the boat, we landed on the 34°C island at 2:30 p.m. Our return ferry would leave at 4 p.m. and that was the only one, so the photoshoot went at high speed. The two men posed on the rocky coral embankment heavily decked out in their European flair ―― while perspiration trickled down. Also, in the meantime, the group got scared by long-legged starfish coming out of holes, gigantic woodlice running around on the rocks, and moray eels swimming in the shallows. Ah, Imai turned pale. He~y, drink your beer ―― But as depicted, Imai made a full recovery.

It bears noting that in the picture on page 126 (the last picture featured here), the scoundrel looking upon the happy couple of  “balmy Showa seas decadence” from the shadows of the rocks, ready to tear their relationship apart is, of course, Imai.

And next, what the weary Ichikawa troupe had been waiting for; the lingerie pub, “Dorikamu” which was also touched upon in the Drinking Diary! In this establishment, it’s to be expected that the lingerie-clad ladies will sit next to patrons, and every 30 minutes, Dorikamu’s famous Talk Time will take place, where the ladies will sit on a patron’s lap to talk to him and at the end, she will dance with her crotch gyrating 5cm away from the patron’s face. To add to this, of all men, the one who got picked was he who was the most indifferent to such behaviour; ISSAY. ISSAY’s eyes were wide open and his body absolutely rigid ―― Yuta, who was seated far away, ran up to him, “ISSAY-san, are you okay?”. Now that it had ended, ISSAY reasoned, “I thought I might die but I’m alright. Since I’ve been holding Atsushi’s hand throughout.”

Uh… huh.

.

.

.

end.

Notes:

* Cuisine native to Okinawa.

** Basically a bar where all the hostesses wear lingerie.

*** A Shisa is an Okinawan lion dog statue usually placed on rooftops to protect against evil spirits. Also known as an Okinawan guardian lion.

^ The phrase used here was based on a Japanese saying (一寸の虫にも五分の魂) but here, the 虫 (bug) has been switched to 今井 instead. The English equivalent of this saying is, “Even a worm will turn”, meaning that even the meekest or most docile of creatures will retaliate or seek revenge if pushed too far.

Translation: Yoshiyuki

Related articles:

[Sep 1995] Ongaku to Hito: Let’s rethink B-T SPECIAL, part 2 of 2
A Decadent Conversation Even Under The Sun with Sakurai Atsushi X ISSAY

Let’s rethink B-T SPECIAL, part 2 of 2

Ongaku to Hito
September 1995

Interview = Ichikawa Tetsushi
Photos = Koij Kayano

Following last issue’s major feature of Hisashi Imai + J’s Passionate Fanboy Declaration Dialogue from Takamatsu, this month’s second part of the B-T Review SPECIAL comes to you from Okinawa.

BUCK-TICK’s first live show in 3 weeks which was held on June 28 at Naha Civic Hall was presented the same way as their first few shows of this tour; their main set comprised entirely of songs from their latest album Six/Nine. Without a doubt, rather than the “spirit of fanservice” which we get when they perform BT classics like “Speed” or “ICONOCLASM” midway, I far prefer this present strong structure which bravely sticks to only their new songs. I like them, and the way they unhesitatingly declare their conviction of “being a liberal band unbound by the currents and trends of the market” gets me excited about the future of this one-of-kind presence.

Of course, this conviction was fully reflected in how good their live show was. What should have been a very “elaborate” set of songs was brought to life by a superb band ensemble that created an unusually groovy atmosphere. Sakurai’s cul-de-sac aesthetic was on full display as he his jacket around his head and writhed wildly, danced around crazily like Bryan Ferry, and “broke” rather intensely. OK OK. The highlight of it all was probably his agonisingly decadent duet of “Itoshi no Rock Star” with their guest ISSAY, who he last performed with on May 17 at Nippon Budokan. With all the passionate kisses exchanged, the performance felt like a true demonstration of latent potential of the Japan’s aesthetic rock.

In fact, ISSAY’s guest appearance was in response to Sakurai’s fervent request for a second interview (← The first was published in our May 1994 issue) and next to making that happen this time in Okinawa, it went on to his appearance at their live show too. Well then, time to read about this decadent duo who have burst out of their unlocked basements and into the mid-summer beach.

ーー This is a song where Sakurai can finally sing about his own dilemma that he’s always held between his rockstar self and his regular self but he was able to demonstrate it with help fueled by compassion deeper than the sea from this “aniki” known as ISSAY.

I: “Aniki” (smiles).

S: There’s something dangerous in saying “aniki”, strangely (smiles).

ーー No, no, the “aniki” type of relationship fits you both.

I: “Aniki” is like those pachinko machines, you know those?

S: Reallyー? (Smiles)

I: (There was one) that had macho aniki’s on the board, like those drawn by Hisashi Eguchi^, doing synchronised swimming and getting flogged and all that (smiles).

S: Dangerous (smiles).

I: I’ve only played pachinko 5 times before in my life, but I’d definitely like to try playing that machine.

ーー (Smiles) You’ve performed together at lives in Tokyo twice, and undoubtedly, it was as if the world of these “aniki” unfolded on stage.

I: Performing that song was so much fun, you know, with [an uncertainty regarding] how the other appear would appear (smiles). Which is why there was a staggering amount of tension, y’know, the both of us (smiles). And we were watching each other closely to decide on how we’d move on our own― Doing that, we ended up getting questions from fans like ‘Was it choreographed?’ and things like that, didn’t we (smiles)?

ーー If you choreographed that, you both will become slaves to lust at every rehearsal (smiles).

S: Hahahaha. That’d be nice (smiles).

I: Ichikawa-kun didn’t see the Budokan performance, but Budokan’s was an evolved form of Liquid Room’s.

ーー What do you mean by “evolved form”?

I: It became more intense (smiles).

ーー Is it maturation or degradation? But B-T fans also welcomed you enthusiastically, so that was great.

I: Ah, but I was thinking about what I should do if they were dead silent when I get called (smiles).

ーー I understand that feeling.

I: Then, you know, our HAL-chan (bassist of DZ) came to Budokan to watch and I was suuper happy (smiles). Furthermore, before I was introduced, Atsushi suddenly sang “Shizumitai (←Der Zibet’s little known masterpiece that heralded the dawn of Japan’s decadence (lol))” in acapella.

ーー You did that?

S: Did I ♡ (smiles).

I: Initially, I was still thinking, “This is DZ’s song but what was itー” (smiles). Then HAL-chan was touched that it struck home for him and it was added into current DZ’s tour setlist, you know (smiles).

S: Wonderful一 (smiles).

I: Though I was happy that everyone welcomed me so warmly this time (smiles).

S: There was a vigour. Like “It’s a warm welcome!!” (smiles).

ーー Probably yours (smiles). But this was the first time that B-T has invited a guest to their live, right?

S: Yeah. I guess, in terms of reliability or something― ISSAY-san is reliable. And being able to feel that our own band members are reliable too, for some reason.

ーー What do you mean by your members being reliable?

S: I suppose it’s probably dependent on the different atmospheres that we take in.

I: A different kind of tension; that might be the case.

S: The feeling that our breathing is perfectly in sync.

ーー On the other hand, what’s “Itoshi no Rock Star” like during the tour when ISSAY isn’t around?

S: It’s lonelyー (smiles).

ーー So this means that you’re happy about the last-minute, first-in-a-long-while duet that will be coming true tomorrow at Naha Civil Hall.

S: Yes (smiles).

ーー (Smiles) But I do wonder what the B-T fans think about Sakurai’s yearning for ISSAY.

S: Ahh…… I don’t really know. I guess they think (of him) as “aniki” (smiles).

I: Hahahaha. “Aniki” (smiles).

S: (Smiles) But after all, in terms of type, I suppose…… At a glance, you’d be able to tell, right? That ISSAY-san is like this and Sakurai Atsushi is like that. We’re definitely not the exact same type, but that part that draws people in so well is convincing too, isn’t it?

ISSAY「Me, I’ve only got one artistic style」

ーー But some years ago, when B-T was about to debut, when X was about to debut, when LUNA SEA was about to debut, you thought nothing of them at all, didn’t you? It was something like vainglory [on your part].

I: Uhhuh.

ーー And even though Sakurai performed with a stance that said “Other bands don’t concern us!”, isn’t it exceptionally interesting that this state at this point in time is one where such people are the only tangent point between you both?

(Both burst out laughing).

S: We also spoke about this yesterday when we were drinking but…… I suppose there’s something I longed for after all. Not the wet kind (smiles).

ーー What’s that, this “wet longing” (smiles).

I: Issit a dry longing!? (smiles).

S: No, it’s not dry. I guess it’s wet after all (smiles).

I: Amazing. I ask him what’s a dry longing and next thing he tells me it’s a wet longing (smiles).

ーー Wahahahaha.

S: (Smiles) That…… flexibility, or something, ISSAY-san has it. So, the flexibility and stoic-ness that I feel are― qualities that I’ll never possess, and I’ve seen it in Der Zibet since the very beginning. Furthermore, the strength of that suppleness, that core, I suppose has never changed.

ーー So you’re saying that ISSAY hasn’t changed since 10 years ago.

I: I haven’t changed (smiles). Me, I’ve only got one artistic style! (smiles).

S: (Smiles) Your attitude, I suppose.

ーー On the other hand, what about Sakurai from ISSAY’s point of view?

I: You see, I think he’s cool. So, during this time’s live, I was watching Atsushi on the monitor until it was time for me to go on stage and― In that sense, Atsushi is far more flexible than I am too. And when he’s stoic, he’s tremendously stoic, and that’s the kind of thing that I really love, you know? And more than before, much much more, it’s this… there is this sense of scale now.

ーー Ah, he was still young back then, right?

I: No, it’s not that, because I’ve happened to watch BUCK-TICK’s live in London, in the past (smiles).

ーー During the recording of ‘TABOO’.

I: But for me, ever since B-T came out, I liked their 1st and 2nd [albums] so, yeah. And these two albums that followed― ‘darker than darkness’ and ‘Six/NiNe’, I really love them both, again, for different reasons. It’s definitely…… the way they’re evolving yet there’s a nature that doesn’t change? After all, I get the feeling that all of it steadily boils down to become one thing, and that attitude…… it holds a tremendous amount of good vibes too, I like it.

ーー The point is that― You’re only capable of doing this one same thing since back thenー.

I: Kukukuku.

S: Hey, that’s mean! (Smiles).

ーー And being all alone―, and obstinacy being the common denominator that connects you two together, I suppose.

I: Ahahaha. Ah, but these 3 points are huge, you know. These three points might be crucial.

S: A strong spring, that’s what it is (smiles).

I: Because when it comes to artists, I love those people who possess a ton of those, you see (smiles).

ーー But, y’know, I think that being able to do only one thing is a good thing, isn’t it? You can’t [do] rock if you don’t lack skill, right?

I: Yeah. And on the other hand, with Atsushi, no matter what form things come in, he’s able to do it because he has that one thing, doesn’t he? Because, even though I think that he’s only able to do things in that style, he possesses his own flavour. Der Zibet is also like that, but things like the musicality of the band and so on has now changed, hasn’t it?    But Atsushi has always done things with one single methodology in such areas, so no matter what music is being presented to him, no matter what style it becomes, I feel that he will be undaunted.

ーー Yes, exactly. Be it DZ or B-T, both bands do things their own way, as they like, and the unreasonable role burdened with the responsibility of “Write the lyrics, sing the song and make it sound like B-T, alright? Make it sound like DZ, alright?” is being delegated to you both (smiles).

S: Hahahaha.

I: Kukukukuku!

ーー But aren’t there a lot of songs that you don’t know what to do with when they get passed to you?

I: Yeah (smiles). That’s absolutely right, that happens (smiles).

ーー Because both HIKARU and Imai are pretty similar, aren’t they? They simply do whatever they feel like doing and then say, “I think this is cool so I’ll leave whatever comes after to you!” (smiles).

I: It will be left to me, so it’s just like that. You see, he’d just tell me to sing it my way (smiles).

S: That’s true. But once I’ve digested it, it’s like it’s already there.

ーー Even so, outrageous songs that you can’t put lyrics to will have their lyrics written by Imai and at the same time, he’d sing it too (smiles).

S: (Smiles) No no, because that’s simply what Imai wants to express―.

ーー But I believe you’ve only become attentive to such areas recently, right?

S: Mm…… In that sense, I suppose I’ve got a little room to breathe, recently. Something like having ISSAY-san join us…… Like the leeway [within the] band.

Sakurai「Successor? I’ve no idea at all」

ーー (Smiles) Well, even then, this decadent ballad tag-team has already happened for 3 previous songs, but when I listen to the CD, your voices are like two peas in a pod, I can’t tell the difference between the both of you.

I: That’s absolutely right. I’ve often been asked myself.

S: Right?

I: But our speaking voices are different, aren’t they?    DZ and BUCK-TICK sing on different keys so I guess when we’re on the same key, it sounds similar.

S: Hahahaha.

I: And a lady writer/reporter who came to watch the Budokan performance said, “Ah, so this is the separation between your two voices” like she understood it for the first time (smiles).

ーー If that’s the case, it might even be a good idea for the two of you to try coming together as a duo. The aniki version of Karyudo^^ or something like that (smiles).

I: Gyahahaha. Kukuku.

S: Hahahahaha.

ーー If you tried doing that, I think you’d feel something similar to that stubbornness and one-trick-pony lack of skill.

I: I do think that there’s a closeness for such a case of [vocal] separation and the stances with which each of us performs is different. But yet, in terms of our way of being as artists and the way things are encapsulated, I think that there’s a part of us that is close to aestheticism.

ーー What does Sakurai think about this?

S: …… P-Presumptuous (smiles).

ーー Do you conversely have a wish of “wanting to only change this part” or something like that?

S: No, not at all (immediate answer).

I: Hahaha. Oh, really?

S: Not at all (immediate answer)². Since way back I’ve aーlways been watching, but this person is just filled with the convincing “I should stay in such a place” kind of quality.

ーー I wonder, what will you do if either one of you changed in future?

I: Breakup? (smiles).

S: With one phone call (smiles). “Thank you for all these years”. Really, we can’t speak anymo一re (smiles).

I: (Smiles) That’s cold.

S: But for me, it was a turning point to be attracted to ISSAY-san’s aesthetic and go and watch his live― [He’s] a boy who has his own garden and plays in it. At that time, I didn’t have a garden in my home yet, but ISSAY-san had a place where he’s the only interesting aspect (smiles).

I: Uhahaha. Doesn’t that make me nothing more than a self-indulgent guy!

ーー Ain’t that simply the description of an unsociable guy.

I: You talkin’bout me? (smiles). But I can really understand what he’s trying to say. I think that’s something that I’ve aーlways desperately defended after all. That’s why I’m really happy that he was able to see that from me.

ーー I suppose that’s how the younger ones view the present Sakurai too. You two are of the self-revolving cul-de-sac style, and it’s a credo that only applies to the two of you.

S: Hahahaha. That’s right, that’s right.

I: But, you know, being able to ceremoniously do something like that in the overground scene was impossible before BUCK-TICK debuted, wasn’t it? That’s why, when I look at them, I think that they’re really cool, reliable. I think it’s really significant that they’re living with confidence.

S: The one who’s reassuring is this one [ISSAY]. It’s very much so whenever I’m doing something and I think, “Ah, there’s someone who continues to hold on to a style that’s similar to ISSAY-san’s”.

ーー Ain’t that just lovely. Has no successor shown up?

S: I’ve no idea at all (smiles).

ーー Argh, it’d be boring if this perishes after two generations.

I: I’d hate for [it to end in] two generations! (smiles). Have it go down to posterity.

S: Hahahahahaha.

Notes:

* BUCK-TICK song title translations come from This is NOT Greatest Site

** Here, he used the phrase お返しを込めて (okaeshi wo komete). I’ve never seen such a phrase myself, so I’d say that it’s not a standard phrase per se, but a mix of two.
お返し, in general, is used in contexts when you’re talking about returning something, like a book (think library) or a favour, or getting back at someone for something, i.e. revenge. You could say that it’s rather obvious that Sakurai’s phrase belongs to the former rather than the latter.
を込めて tends to be used with 愛 (love), 感謝 (gratitude) or 心 (heart) and varying grammar particles to result in phrases which are the equivalent of “with love”, “with thanks”, or “with all my heart”.
From his statement following this line of dialogue, it can be implied that he meant お返しを込めて with regards to his appreciation for being asked by Der Zibet /ISSAY to take part in their activities. Thus, in a way, this is sort of him “returning the favour”. Or so he says ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

*** I decided not to translate 兄貴 (aniki), which is basically a slang version of the more standard お兄さん (oniisan), or in English, big/elder brother. In gay circles, it is also used to address an older gay man who is masculine in spirit and appearance. Although do note that if he is masculine in both spirit and appearance, he can also be addressed as a “nee-san” (elder sister) depending on his words and actions.

^ Hisashi Eguchi is a manga artist who debuted in Shonen Jump in 1977 with Susume!! Pirates. Other works of his includes include Stop!! Hibari-kun!, and Charamono.

^^ Karyudo (狩人) was a singing duo consisting of brothers Takamichi Kato and Kunihiko Kato. They originally disbanded in 2006 to focus on solo activities but have since reformed in 2012.

Translation: Yoshiyuki
Scans: yasromance

Related articles:

[Sep 1995]  Ongaku to Hito: Drinking Diary/Afterparty Columns (Extract)

Sakurai Atsushi (B-T) ＋ ISSAY (Der Zibet)
“Aesthetic” & “Aesthetic”

Ongaku to Hito
May 1994

Interview = Ichikawa Tetsushi
Photos = Kitajima Akira

In Chinese | In Russian

ISSAY, the aesthetician “who has no choice but to only go around in circles in a blind alley” from the “forefathers of the resurgence of Japan’s aesthetic-kei rock” Der Zibet who debuted in 1985. Sakurai Atsushi, the aesthetician “who is in complete self-denial, who loses himself anyway” from the “band who are the first from Japan’s aesthetic-kei rock to conquer the whole country” B-T who debuted in 1987. This is the first time that an interview is being held with both men together.

Imperceptibly, we have transitioned into a status quo where the movement of visual-kei, also known as maquillage-kei, aesthetic-kei, or Japanese decadence-kei, has become the prevailing trend in Japan’s rock scene. This can be analysed from a variety of perspectives but I believe the one thing that can be said for sure, is that the nucleus of this movement is the “great desire to escape”. Because they hate looking at reality, they search for a haven, “anywhere that isn’t here”, and they scrupulously hide their selves deep inside of them. It is in this peaceful Japan where those known as “hippies” are born in the hotbed of moratoriums. And without a doubt, the beacon for these people are Der Zibet and B-T. That said, let’s head into this esteemed interview of “emotional dependence”, something that appears to be rather befitting of these two.

 Sakurai「I looked at ISSAY-san with feelings akin to that of a girl’s adoration for a boy」

ーー What about Der Zibet does Sakurai like? Don’t worry about it, please be frank.

S: Mm… It made me perform as a vocalist, and also ISSAY-san was good looking.

I: (Lol) Ohh, you.

S: It’s not only the singing, how do I put this…… When he’s performing on stage, there’s something extra there that leaves a very strong impression.

I: Ah, I guess I did that. Like sitting on the stepladder and singing, or carrying a huge clock.

ーー (Lol) Like entering the stage with a candle in hand?

I: It’s not a candle! A hand lantern. All four of us wore black coats and came on stage with hand lanterns.

ーー It was as avant-garde as it could be, wasn’t it?

I: Now that I think about it, I guess that was Japanese Gothic (lol).

S: Hahahahaha.

ーー Is he getting embarrassed, this man?

I: No no no (lol). Well, I’m not embarrassed about having done that before. But, y’know, when talking about it face-to-face…… Isn’t it the same kind of embarrassment you feel when someone brings out a photo from your high school days and says “We went on a picnic together back then, didn’t we”? It’s awkward.

ーー So, Sakurai-san, perhaps you felt that you shared certain commonalities with Der Zibet?

S: …… Hmm…… How should I say this, the feelings of a boy’s poetry was what I felt. Like the feelings of a girl who admires a boy who has his own world? Yes, I guess it could’ve been from the perspective of a girl. Or should I say that it’s something like a father complex.

ーー Come to think of it, as an expressionist, Sakurai-san has a complex where you lack a “perspective to call your own”, right?

S: Perhaps I still can’t express myself in words but I’ve yet to arrive at that point, so, with ISSAY-san in front of me, as someone who has already attained that……

ーー And so, you admire him with the heart of a maiden, and furthermore, you look at him as a father… You’re another troublesome one, aren’t you (lol).

S: (Lol) With feelings of envy.

ISSAY「London was where I watched B-T’s live for the first time」

ーーThe first time that ISSAY saw B-T was in 1988 in London, wasn’t it? When the both of you were in a foreign land for recording with Der Zibet for “GARDEN” and B-T for “TABOO”…

I: That was when I saw your live.

S: Ah, that’s right.

ーー I suppose younger readers might be unaware of this conversation topic.

I: But, y’know, the first time that we met was at Meguro’s Rokumeikan, when there was a public recording for a TV program… SION and Der Zibet and B-T were filming on the same day, and when I went into the dressing rooms, we became acquainted there.

S: (Shy smile) Oh, that’s right, I remember that.

ーー Oh, really? Was that during your debut days, for B-T?

S: Yes, right after we debuted.

ーー So, when you went into the dressing rooms, there were a group of boys with their hair up.

I: Yes, that’s right. They were really great kids (lol). Atsushi and Imai (Hisashi) were quiet but the two rhythm players (= Ani & U-ta) were very earnestly saying “We’re B-T”. So I said something like “Ah, hello” (lol)

ーー Sakurai said nothing?

I: He said, “I’ve watched your live once before”.

S: (Shy smile) Is that so?

ーー Ah, well, in those days, Sakurai was someone who wouldn’t talk at all… I think it was right before their debut, but when I had an interview with B-T, Sakurai & Hoshino (Hidehiko) were the super silent squadron, y’know? Maybe because their hair was standing (lol).

S: (Lol) Argh… We were useless fellows.

I: But the even more silent one was Imai (LOL).

ーー Anyway, about your witnessing of B-T’s live in London.

I: A message from Atsushi came into my answering machine, something like “I heard that you’re going to London for recording in the same period of time, so, if we can, let’s meet”.

ーー Sakurai, why, are you embarrassed?

S: No no no (lol).

ーー You’re blushing like a young girl (lol).

S: ………………… (lol).

I: Hahahaha. Then he said that B-T will be performing a live there, so I said “Let’s go let’s go” and I went to watch them with the other band members.

ーー You probably couldn’t say this till now, but performing a live in London was tough, wasn’t it?

S: It sure was tough. But, well, it’s like we did it with a roar then left though. I figured that I couldn’t do it if I was sober I don’t have any recollection of it though (lol).

ーー So, before the performance started you drank up like hell (lol).

S: Yeah.

ーー How reckless (lol). Were Der Zibet the only Japanese in the audience?

S: There were a few others who looked like exchange students.

ーー Isn’t it more embarrassing when there are Japanese around?

S: That’s true. But they were right in front (lol).

I: Yes yes, y’know, I thought that they might’ve especially come all the way from Japan for this. I thought, “B-T is so amazing” (lol).

ーー What were your thoughts about the live performance itself?

I: They sure gave their all (lol). They were really fired up. The ending, I think, that was terrific. It went like, ‘gyadooon gyadooon!’. Like, “Ohhh, they’re doing it” (lol).

S: Pretty much like an athlete, that (lol).

I: “Listen up, you lot! You bastard!” Something like that.

S: We might’ve been thought of as horrible people (lol).

I: No, not at all, I didn’t get any bad vibes. You were interacting with a smile too, and you even did an MC and stuff.

ーー MC!!!

I: Speaking in English became bothersome halfway, so he ended up speaking in Japanese though (lol).

ーー Whaaaat (lol). There’s no way a guy who barely even speaks for an MC in Japan can do that over there, right.

I: Hahahahahaha.

S: Right? That was impossible.

ーー But this is a nostalgic topic, isn’t it?

I: But I remember the events of those days quite clearly.

S: I remember them too. I was so happy when you came into the dressing room too.

ーー Now that I think about it, that was the one and only time that both B-T and Der Zibet recorded overseas, right.

I: Because for us, when we go over there, we end up creating dark works, don’t we (lol). But you see, “GARDEN” was criticised for being too dark, yet when we listened to it in London, it sounded normal. You wouldn’t have thought that it was dark at all.

S: That’s true, isn’t it? It didn’t seem like our “TABOO” met Ichikawa-san’s expectations either though (lol).

ーー But when I went to London, as soon as I arrived it felt ominous though? You really have to know yourself very well as an artist.

I: It fit well with my predisposition, didn’t it? For sure. I enjoyed myself, being in London. Was it not that way for you?

S: Ah, mentally it indeed was really comfortable.

ISSAY「Shall we have a takoyaki party next time?」
Sakurai「Yes yes」

ーー But Sakurai’s been to Hawaii for vacation before though (lol).

S: It was far more arduous there (lol). There was something like a ridiculous, compulsive idea that it would be a waste if I didn’t go out…… (lol).

I: Ah, I know I know! (Lol). So, you went out?

S: I went out.

I: Swam in the sea?

S: I did (lol).

I: Ain’t that nice~, you went swimming in the sea~ (lol).

S: Hahahaha.

I: Next time, let’s go, it’ll be fun. Let’s go let’s go (lol). Y’know, last summer was also my first time going to the beach in 15 years (lol).

S: What kind of fun are you talking about (lol).

ーー Swimming in the sea in with a decadent stature (lol).

I: After that, we met when our paths crossed a number of times. I think I was going returning from a tour stop in Nagoya, but anyway, we were pumping gas at a highway rest stop, you see (lol) when a bunch of guys with long hair came towards us. Just as I thought, “Huh? I think I’ve seen them before”, the bassist said, “We’re B-T!” (lol). Then, Atsushi came up from behind with this suuuper embarrassed look on his face (lol).

ーー Wahahahaha.

I: I was like, “It’s Atsushii～!” (lol). There was also that time at Peter Murphy’s concert, and we also met outside Nakano Sunplaza, didn’t we?

S: You remember it all so well, don’t you?

ーー Probably because there were so few incidents since you live withered lives like retired old men (lol).

I: That’s true (lol). There aren’t many things that move my heart, y’know. But, you see, when I meet Atsushi, I lose my composure for a moment, like “It’s Atsushiiii～～～～～”.

S: Hahahahahahaha.

I: Atsushi is a homebody too, right?

S: Though it’s nice to head out of Tokyo, isn’t it, just getting into the car and speeding away. But until I actually get out, it’s exhausting.

ーー This guy, he probably basks in bliss when he goes into his own room (lol), despite that he may simply be idling around.

S: But, you see, there aren’t any outsiders (lol).

I: It’s tiring, isn’t it? Heading out.

S: Yeah, it’s tiring. I wonder why.

I: Because there are other people other than yourself (lol).

ーー Wahahahahahaha.

S: Hahahaha. A hundred percent, full marks (lol).

I: Thank you (lol).

S: Even though I’m at this age, I still get shy or scared. For example, I want to go to Tokyu Hands but I can’t, and so on (lol).

I: I can’t go either (lol).

ーー What would Sakurai go to Hands for?

S: A light bulb burnt out so I headed there to get one. It’s a special one, you see. In the end, someone else went and bought it for me (lol).

I: Right? Right? It’s the same for me.

ーー These guys are useless (lol).

I: You know, there was also the time when I wanted a takoyaki set so much that I asked my manager to go buy it for me.

S: Ah, I bought one too. It’s the Tokyu Hands one, right? (lol).

I: Ah, really? Shall we have a takoyaki party next time, just the two of us (lol).

S: Let’s, let’s (lol).

I: A dark, decadent takoyaki party (lol).

ーー While listening to Sisters of Mercy.

S: Hahahahahaha.

ーー I’ll join in too. So, the song “Masquerade”, that the both of you sang together on in Der Zibet’s “Shishunki II (思春期II)”, it’s turned out to be a “decadence master-disciple duet”.

I: Wasn’t Ichikawa the one who planned it (lol). But it was so much fun, wasn’t it, that (lol). I think the finished product was interesting too.

ーー To think that both of your voice qualities would sound that similar.

I: Right (lol)? But y’know, even for myself, there are a number of areas where I can’t tell whether it’s me singing or Atsushi singing.

S: We’ve been told that a lot, haven’t we?

I: It was surprising, wasn’t it? But, y’know, when you listen to how Atsushi usually sings, it’s different, isn’t it? That’s probably the result of us happening to be absorbed with the same parts of the artistic style, right?

ISSAY「Y’know, in the past, we were branded as pop-rock」
Sakurai「That was the case for us too (lol)」

ーー By the way, I’ve been wondering, what does ISSAY think of what B-T does?

I: I haven’t listened to all of everything they have so I don’t quite know, but I think it’s interesting. Isn’t it odd? There isn’t anyone else who has gone major making such music, is there? And that’s why I’m very happy about it, furthermore, it’s rather well received. I think that it’s a really wonderful thing. Y’know, ever since came into the scene, I’ve always been thinking to myself, “So this made it to a major label, huh. How different” (lol). Despite that they do quite a lot of crude things, y’know.

ーー I think Victor’s different too, for some unknown reason, they’ve got so many weird sounding “amateurs” who don’t know the basics with instruments. If it was any other recording company, they would’ve been struck off.

I: That is indeed unusual.

S: I think so too (lol).

ーー For me, very frankly speaking, until now, I still can’t help but think that it’s weird that for some strange reason, B-T sells well.

S: Fufufufu.

I: Well, for me, I kind of understand. I think that the way that their melodies are easy to catch is a strong point after all. I don’t think that there’s any need to persistently stick to that, but I guess it’s probably got something to do with how large the acceptability factor of their music is. Their lyrics are really sordid, and they had their hair in this style, but I think their melodies were very lively, weren’t they? That really struck me hard, y’know, when they started out.

ーー So, if Der Zibet too debuted 4 years later than when you did, you might’ve been sellable too.

I: Hahahaha. Well, maybe, I guess, don’t you think so? (Lol).

ーー But, you know, I think that B-T contributed greatly to this movement of this “weird sounding” aesthetic-kei or visual-kei or British-kei becoming widely accepted in Japan. Especially when you consider how aesthetic-kei is prospering right now.

I: I do think so too. He’s different, this Atsushi.

S: (Lol) No no, if not for ISSAY-san I wouldn’t be here.

ーー You guys, you’re unearthly. But it feels like there are fewer and fewer loveable “aesthetic fools” around.

S: Because fashion comes first.

ーー Yeah. That’s despite that stylers are popping up one after another, be it among amateurs or indies or major labels.

I: Hahahahaha. Styler (lol).

S: (Lol) What’s that, those ‘stylers’?

ーー Hm? It’s a term that refers to people with style.

S: Hahahaha. What an amazing expression.

ーー I think the underground aesthetics scene centred at Shinjuku back in the mid-80s had some really fine fools, didn’t it?

I: It had that, it did. I wonder how’s Genet.

ーー (Lol) There weren’t any bands who thought “We will sell!” just by spending on production and advertising when going major.

I: You’re right. But that’s because they had power.

ーー But that underground power, even though it’s a good quality to have, isn’t there a depressing history of bands getting criticised just because their values are different from the priorities of major labels?

I: But, y’know, this world, isn’t that how it’s just turned out to be?

ーー Then again, Der Zibet’s existence is an anomaly in all of that… Because even as ISSAY’s “aesthetic that simply goes round and round in a blind alley” stands out, you take your music rather seriously too.

I: Even that is unusual though, isn’t it (lol). But y’know, in those days, we were beaten on quite a lot. During the days of our first album, we were being labelled as pop-rock. If your music is even a little bit melodious, you’d be immediately have that plastered on you.

S: That was the case for us too (lol).

ーー But there aren’t any fools around now. Doesn’t that feel like such a pity? Because rock is something that is being sustained by fools, after all, you know? Like with improvements in expressions and performances and all.

I: But, well……

ーー It’s a case of “as long as I can survive”, right?

I: That’s what it is (lol).

S: Hahahahahaha.

ーー Lastly, there’s something I want to ask. ISSAY’s solo album production project is supposedly progressing in secret but is Sakurai Atsushi in any way duty-bound to take part in it?

I: Hahahahaha. Will you do it for me?

S: If you’ll have me!

Translation: Yoshiyuki

On Sakurai Atsushi’s World

PHY Vol. 5
december 2015

Interview text by Ishii Eriko
Photography by Yoda Junko

DER ZIBET’s ISSAY Speaks of “The World of The Expressionist, Sakurai Atsushi”

With The Mortal, Sakurai Atsushi has inscribed that which is his core into his work. He professes that DER ZIBET’s ISSAY is “a senior (senpai) who he respects”, and their relationship has only deepened since his debut. ISSAY, too, dwells in the same dark universe of Sakurai’s, and is an artist who has embodied the concept of decadence since the beginning. Each having their own values resonate with the other for close to a quarter of a century, ISSAY shares his thoughts on the expressionist, Sakurai Atsushi.

I don’t think that he is one who has ever aimed to be “gothic” or “decadent”
This is a consequential result. That’s the part of him that I can empathise with the most

I think it was around the time when BUCK-TICK debuted that I first came to know of Sakurai Atsushi-kun as a person. When was that……?    When we released our second album, there was a TV recording. The location, it was Meguro’s Rokumeikan. Back then, there was another shoot for a broadcast that would be aired on a different day from ours going on as well, and BUCK-TICK was there. We were put together backstage, and that was the first time we exchanged greetings. When I think about it now, I think Atsushi-kun probably mustered up a lot of courage to come and speak to me (smiles). Because he isn’t the type of person who would initiate a conversation, you know.

When we met, I already sensed that he was someone who liked the same things as I do. From the very first time that we spoke, I got the feeling that “this person’s preferences are probably very similar to mine”. I wonder, what made me feel like that? We had casual conversations about live performances and such, and we spoke about the musicians who we liked, but perhaps it was from what was shared in those conversations that I understood very well that he was someone who looked at things from the same perspective as I did. There’s a glam rock mentality, and there are people who like the most pop-like image that from the “Let’s Dance”* period. But for us, I could feel that we both liked David Bowie for that unique depth and gloom. I thought that this was the viewpoint of ours that matched.

It’s the same for me, but Atsushi-kun is a person who really likes things that revolve around such gloom and depth, isn’t he? If I were to put it in a more easily understandable word, I suppose that would be “darkness”, I guess (smiles). But, you know, when I look at him, this is what I feel but, I don’t think that he is one who has ever aimed to be “gothic” or “decadent”. This is a consequential result, isn’t it? Perhaps you can say that that’s where we’re similar, or that’s the part of him that I can empathise with the most. There are many who express themselves with “decadence” as a goal, but there just aren’t that many people who turn out like this as a consequential result. When he expresses what he feels and what he likes in the words that he favours, the resulting product ends up getting considered as “gothic” or “decadent”. That is…… because he will always see the duality of things too after all, isn’t it? I suppose, like how the scent of death will definitely be found right next to something with vitality. I think he’s the kind of human who has the sensitivity to sniff out those kinds of things.

You know, every time I see him, I come to understand that he is someone who possesses something similar to what I have. We happened to bump into each other a number of times after the first time that we met at Rokumeikan, you know. Like, we’d bump into each other outside the venue when we’re going to watch lives by foreign artists, then we’d stand there and talk for a bit. Among these occasions, the funniest one was when I was on the way back from a tour, we were traveling

in the equipment vehicle so we were taking a break at one of those service areas along the way. Just then, this tall, blond guy** began approaching us with this huge grin on his face, and as I was wondering “Who’s that?”, it was Atsushi-kun. Our conversation went something like, “What’s up?”    “Well, we’re in the middle of a tour.”    “Same. Me too.” (smiles). It made me think that it’s like we’re tied by fate or something.

Also, I suppose another thing that surprised me was, back when we were recording our 4th album, ‘GARDEN’, in London, BUCK-TICK was also recording in London as well. Before this, he did say to me that we should meet if we could, but well, I’m going to London, you know, so I figured that it’s rather unlikely that we’d happen to bump into each other. But we met (smiles). So, then, I heard that they were going to perform live in London, and it just so happened that on that day, we finished our recording session early, and the venue also happened to be near the studio. So I thought, well, let’s go and see, and I went over with my band members, right. It really was just a continuous string of coincidences. If this happened between a man and a woman, they would’ve already fallen in love, wouldn’t they (smiles)?

Even after we became friends, my impression of him is still the same as what I had in the beginning, you know. He’s always been a gentleman, and he barely gets surprised in the way a person goes “Ah, so such a thing exists”. It’s still the same image as the one I got when he first came up to me and spoke to me. Despite those intense eyes, he’s such a terribly shy person (smiles). And he’s mischievous, isn’t he? He has such a great sense of humour. Those little things that he suddenly blurts are funny too. Once, when we were parting after having met for work or something, he said “…… Next time, let’s have a beer too”, you know (smiles). “Sounds good, a beer.”    “We’ll both go for a beer together next time.” and so on. Since then, we kept saying “Let’s have a beer” to each other (smiles).

He drinks a lot, doesn’t he? Well, but all the members in BUCK-TICK are like this though (smiles). But when it comes to Atsushi-kun, you know, he doesn’t change much even after he’s had alcohol. When we’re drinking, we speak as per normal, you know. From “what have you been up to lately”, to conversations like “Have you listened to this work before?” or “Have you read this book before?”. Also, we send albums to each other, so there’d be talk like “That album was nice”, or “Klimt*** was used on this album’s cover, wasn’t it”    “Well…… but I do know that ISSAY-san loves Klimt though”, and so on (smiles). Our conversations generally revolve around these exceedingly average topics, you see. With Atsushi-kun, I drink with him probably only once or twice a year, and we do go and watch each other’s live performances, and to me, it’s quite rare for a relationship to last this long with someone, you know.

Without considering solitude and loneliness as negative emotions
Embracing them as if they are very precious things
I think that he is aware that this is who he is

When I see him on stage, during a live, it no longer matters that he is my junior (kouhai) or younger than me, I think that he’s a really impressive person. Firstly, it’s that voice, you know. He has a magnificent voice, and he knows how to sing in a way that makes the most of it. Though when he steps out onto BUCK-TICK’s stage, it’s like there’s an extreme tension, and when he comes out, it somehow feels like a string snapped apart to the beat or something. I do wonder if it is at that point when his personality changes. Perhaps, you know, maybe during his high school days, his friends thought that it’s rather unbelievable that he could be someone who can be a vocalist and sing in front of other people. When you look at how he normally is, you wouldn’t believe that with music, he is someone who will go out in front of people. I imagine that he’s the type of person who you wouldn’t expect this from, you know.

But, ever since a certain point in time…… somehow, he changed, you know. Initially, he was uptight and full of nerves, but after a certain point in time, he grew very gutsy. When was that?    Or should I say, he grew defiant. Like, “I am me, this is how I am, so there”. Maybe he grew defiant, I think. Probably…… it was in the middle period. I think it was during the period of time when they released that album where I was asked to be a guest on one of the songs (Six/Nine, 1995), but ever since then, all of a sudden, Atsushi-kun became strong, didn’t he? I began to feel something dignified in him, like he’s declaring “This is me”.

I think that now, he truly is the type of musician that I like. In any case, in these few years…… From time to time, I can see glimpses of him enjoying fiction. The fact that he makes me feel that “Ah, to think that such an artist exists in Japan and in the major labels too” is a very promising thing, and it makes me glad, you know.

In BUCK-TICK, each of the members understands their own positioning extremely well, and I think that they are a band where it turns out exceptionally nicely. You know, usually, someone would keep yearning for the spotlight and stepping out to the front, and then the band goes bad (smiles), but it’s amazing that they don’t have this, isn’t it? The band members understand very well things like “Ah, he needs to be the one in front now” or “I have to stand in here for this moment”. And without ever wavering, they’ve just continued on like this all~ the way. But this time, Atsushi-kun stepping away from that and creating a solo project with a band is…… a lot of pressure on him, I think. But since he has decided to work on a solo project, there’s no way that he can run away from that pressure, is there? Because it was the same for me when I worked on my solo project as well. But earlier, I said that “There was probably a time when he grew defiant”, and I think, there is probably a need for him to grow even more defiant than that. The phrase “to grow defiant” doesn’t really have a positive image, but it also has the connotation of a person accepting themselves with “I am alright as I am”.  I think that it also means to lose whatever doubt you have in relation with yourself being as you are. But for him to have completed his solo work like this, isn’t it yet another contribution to him growing stronger? That’s what I think it is.

I’ve listened to THE MORTAL’s album, and the very first thought that came to mind was, “Ah…… He’s done it” (smiles). I felt that he’s done something really wonderful here. I suppose you could say that it’s really very much Atsushi-kun’s style. He’s excluded all unnecessary colours and the sort, and made it something that draws close to his own core, don’t you think so? Of course, it’s not like there aren’t any songs that make me feel like “Ah, this song wouldn’t sound odd even if BUCK-TICK were the ones performing it”, but, the colours are completely different after all. To put it precisely, there aren’t any colours at all, it’s a work that is in monochrome. You know, for me, I particularly loved the last two songs. “Mortal” and “Sayonara Waltz”.

In terms of the content that he depicts and his lyrics, there are things that I, myself, would not express in the same way if it were me. But I think that those parts, we both have, mutually. Because I express things with my own words, and him with his own. But when it comes to why he chooses to express something the way that he does, that, I can fully understand. I often get the feeling that even if the way he expresses these words are different, he’s probably saying the same thing, you know. Like, “Ah, so he sees such a world too……”. That comes across very clearly, doesn’t it? Developing empathy for the conceptual parts like that, I think it only happens with him. Of course, when I listen to other music, there are many occasions when I am surprised and I think “Ah, I see, so such an expression exists!”, but when it comes to him, I’d notice what’s under the surface, like “Ah…… I suppose this was what he saw” or “It seems like there was a moment when he felt like how I did”, and I’d find myself nodding in agreement. Well…… Perhaps we share the souls of lovers, right? Hahahaha!

But, speaking like this, I said earlier that the common aesthesic that we share is “darkness”, but that might be putting it a little too simply, you know (smiles). While it’s true that it can be considered as darkness…… it’s something that has more contrast than that. Like, take for example, when the blazing sunlight of midsummer shines down on a tree, the shadow of that tree isn’t total darkness. I can see the border that lines it. It’s not about whether I like or dislike it, it’s just something that I do out of habit, you know. There are people who say that they like dark things, but on the other hand, you don’t really meet many who naturally exude it like second nature. I think, what makes him and I even more similar is probably the part of us that is capable of treating things that an ordinary person would feel is negative, as very positive things. Usually, let’s say, for example, solitude and loneliness, these things would be treated as negative emotions and rejected. But for him and me, without considering them as negative emotions, we treat them as very precious things and plunge in. And then we accept them, embrace them. Because we understand that this is who we are, and they definitely do exist, they are fact. I think that this is something that Atsushi-kun is already distinctly aware of.

Notes:

* Referring to the album by David Bowie.

** In this sentence, he used the phrase お兄ちゃん (oniichan), which, in Japanese, does not necessarily mean ‘older brother’, especially when referring to strangers. It’s like a slightly more affectionate term used to refer to a random dude. An example would be calling a waiter in an izakaya お兄ちゃん, which would be similar to calling them ‘bro’ in English. Of course, there is the flipside where you call a waitress お姉ちゃん (oneechan). You could say that it’s one of those Asian things, similar to how we call everyone our ‘uncle’ or ‘aunty’, even if we’re not related.

*** Referring to the Austrian artist, Gustav Klimt.

Translation: Yoshiyuki

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